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A Numbers Thing or a Service Industry?

10 Sunday May 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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We live in a world that demands we label everything and place it in it proper category. After having done this we then turn to numbers to decide if we need to change anything and what is needed to make that change, which by the way, will be good for all of us. We assume that the greater the count the better the thing. About four years ago on another blog I lamented that many of our smaller churches were being closed. Some of course because they hadn’t been successful at the numbers game and to be fair they were just dying out as the membership aged.

Here are a few of the church labels of the day. A “Mega Church” for those of you who aren’t familiar with the term is a church so large that if the last person to leave were to turn out the lights it would be the next week. Then there are “large churches”, they have valet parking, at least three morning services, Family life Center and two or more Pastors. Then there are the “big churches”. They have everything the large churches have but they’re having a hard time paying for them. That brings us to that “nice little church”. They don’t have any of the above. Everyone knows everyone; the Pastor is either a nice old guy or a brash young man filled with the spirit that preaches long and loud. The sound system if they have one came from Radio Shack and there is a piano that old Aunt Nettie played for years before she died. Now the newer younger lady is Nettie’s younger sister. Amen! Today there is something bigger than numbers, well it is said it leads to good numbers. That something is “Service”.

To grow a church has to have a lot of different programs other than worship itself. It’s all about how you present yourself; make people want to come, offer a range of services that meets every need. Family things, what do you have for the kids, is there a Youth Director, what type of Music Program do you have? Is there a Family Life Center and what does it include? What about the young adults and seniors, do you have programs for them? Now I could go on and on but the point is this. Church today is about the services it can offer to its members. Most of the things I have listed are the ones people ask about. I have never really heard anyone ask, do you preach the gospel of the Living Christ and is the pastor anointed by God preaching the word and led by the Holy Spirit? When I shared this with some friends they had a question for me. What does it matter how large or small a church is, or what services it offers its members, as long as people are saved and their lives are better? Well I can’t argue with that. I do still wonder why the success of a church is determined by its size. Religion is a weird science for lack of a better term. I think I will stick with John 14.6 Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” That’s the way it looks from my spot in the pew. Come back next week. The pews aren’t full yet.

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The Evolution of Church Law

03 Sunday May 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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For several weeks I have been looking at the possibility of change in the Methodist view of same-gender issues which are dividing our church leadership and creating uncertainty among us in the pew. According to Webster sin is an offense against religious or moral law or an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible an often can be a serious shortcoming. The Christian view of sin is that it is a transgression of the law of God which can tarnish the state of human nature in which a person is estranged from God. We have all heard it said that God is the same today as He was yesterday and for all the days to come. I have written about church law versus God’s Law and my belief that God’s intent was for marriage to be between a man and a woman. I do not believe that any amount of discussion however well-intentioned will change that. That brings me to the inescapable conclusion that we are about to witness the evolution of church law. Evolution by definition is a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state. It is a growth process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance. I can see no better state when the cost is the perversion of God’s intent and the redefining of scripture to be more compatible with the ever changing morals of today’s life style. Many of the changes that take place in any church now days are driven by statistics.

We know as Christians that God’s Grace is for all. How do we extend that loving grace to those whom we believe to be estranged from God because their life style is not compatible with God’s Law? If there is to be any peace among us we must accept that God’s grace is available to all who seek it. We must allow God’s judgement, not ours to be decided by God not us. The question the Methodist church needs to ask and address is simply this. How do we as Christ did, eat with the tax collectors, go among the lepers, kneel in the dirt with the adulterous, and how do we go among those who because of sin are estranged from God or better yet how do we bring them among us without being caught up or enticed into the sin that holds them captive? How do we show this grace and love and not give the impression that what God found to be unacceptable is now acceptable? I have reached a point where words do not come easy. I turn to the Word….. From Romans 12: 9-13

9 Don’t just pretend to love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Hold tightly to what is good. 10 Love each other with genuine affection,and take delight in honoring each other. 11 Never be lazy, but work hard and serve the Lord enthusiastically.12 Rejoice in our confident hope. Be patient in trouble, and keep on praying. 13 When God’s people are in need, be ready to help them. Always be eager to practice hospitality.

We must never accept that which separates us from our God. Only that, that which the Father sent to be among us, will guide us and sustain us in the days ahead. Come Holy Spirit, Come. Next week “The Numbers Game”. Hope you come back. I’ll be waiting here in the pew.

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613 Laws, Seven Scriptures and Two Questions

26 Sunday Apr 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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John Kurt Carpenter's avatarFrom The Pew

Thanks for joining me in the pew this week The Methodist Church has been in a forty year debate, conversation, or discussion; you pick the one that works for you, seeking an answer to two questions. Does the church accept same-gender relationships as being compatible with Christian teachings and is marriage to be defined as a joining together of a man and a woman? I want to keep this simple. As one who sits in the pew and has no theological training or degree I often turn to research and study with a heavy dose of prayerful consideration before I say “this I believe.” I will always acknowledge those sources in any writings of mine. That said; let’s start with this 613 law thing.
The Law is the revealed mind of God. His Will is His commandment, and His commandment is His Law. Thus, the Law is Divine since it…

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613 Laws, Seven Scriptures and Two Questions

26 Sunday Apr 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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Thanks for joining me in the pew this week The Methodist Church has been in a forty year debate, conversation, or discussion; you pick the one that works for you, seeking an answer to two questions. Does the church accept same-gender relationships as being compatible with Christian teachings and is marriage to be defined as a joining together of a man and a woman? I want to keep this simple. As one who sits in the pew and has no theological training or degree I often turn to research and study with a heavy dose of prayerful consideration before I say “this I believe.” I will always acknowledge those sources in any writings of mine. That said; let’s start with this 613 law thing.
The Law is the revealed mind of God. His Will is His commandment, and His commandment is His Law. Thus, the Law is Divine since it comes from a Divine source. It is also perfect, as God Himself is perfect. God’s Law supersedes all other laws. It transcends all other law, making it the Supreme Law of the entire earth.
God’s Law is also comprehensive and universal. It speaks to all areas of life, and to every living soul upon the face of the earth. The Law speaks of ceremonial truths, moral truths and dietary truths. It speaks of man’s duty toward God, and man’s duty toward his fellow man. (http://www.hisglory.us/DOCUMENTS/613_biblical_laws.htm )
The site referenced above is well worth the time spent there and lists all 613 laws. Now let’s move to the seven scriptures.

We examined over and over the seven biblical texts that deal directly with homosexual acts. We acknowledged the violent victimization described in some of these texts. We noticed the centrality of the call to loving relationship and the absence of comment on homosexual acts in the Gospels and in the words of Jesus. We considered the reality that loving, committed; covenant relationships between persons who were homosexual were unacknowledged in ancient times. We studied the creation stories, asking: Do these creation accounts describe the desire of God for mutuality among humans or the delineation of heterosexuality as normative for all? We acknowledged that nowhere is there direct biblical affirmation of homosexuality. In all these conversations, there was strong push and pull as we spoke from entrenched positions. (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/what-are-the-bible-passages-that-deal-with-homosexuality)Again I encourage you to go to the link above and look at these scriptures. Now we are back to the two questions.

Does the church accept same-gender relationships as being compatible with Christian teachings and is marriage to be defined as a joining together of a man and a woman? This is where I step from behind scripture and like many of us in the pew simply try to say what I believe. I believe that in any situation, intent, that core thought or reason which brings something into being is the defining principle and meaning of those things that creation has given life to. God’s words as written speaks to the creation of man and woman, the intent being that they be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and have dominion over all things. The creation of the sexes was God’s intent to populate the creation in the manner God chose. So the question of whether marriage is defined as being between man and woman, that was and is God’s intent.

This question of same-gender relationships has been a part of biblical writings from the earliest of times. The bible had different terms or words to describe such practices, none were favorable. Many people point out that Christ never made reference to such and I believe it may have been because The Father had decided that issue long before he sent his son to live among us. Jesus’ ministry was to reconcile God’s children with the Father. He spoke of love, forgiveness and seeking the will of the Father by repentance and holy living. Jesus would not have justified any perversion that separated us from our Father in heaven; even if the social norms of the day were changing. So I believe that such lifestyle is not compatible with Christian teachings. But…..I am very aware that Christian teachings have a habit of changing with the times. With that in mind I would like to change the compatible statement to read “not compatible with God’s will.”

This is what I believe sitting here in the pew. I will not meet you half-way, I will not compromise my faith in order to meet the changing norms of the day. I understand church structure, law and the Methodist way of doing things. This way and this procedure is embodied in districts, annual conferences and general conference to which all churches have some form of representation. I would remind all sides in this debate that the church, God’s church, sits in the pews. Next week I will look in a direction that is quite different than that we are now traveling in the Methodist Church. I wrote that I would not meet you half-way or compromise my faith but I will work to find a way to love and allow God’s judgement to prevail. You see I also believe that God’s law cannot be changed by a vote. Hope you come back, I will be waiting here in the pew. jk

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Get Out Of The Pew

13 Monday Apr 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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John Kurt Carpenter's avatarFrom The Pew

Sometimes you have to get out of the pew to get a good view where you are spiritually and grow in your walk of faith. We become comfortable with “that ole time religion” of which I will admit is the way I have walked for years. This week’s blog is about exploring a world rich with writings that are not intended to demean or lessen the faith but to challenge and create a hunger for the gospel and those who lived it and wrote about it. In future blogs I intend to share with you books and commentaries that along with the Bible will increase your understanding and love of “The Word.”

I have often wondered how Jesus, the Son of the living God spent his childhood. I thought it odd that there were no writings about this early time in his life. How could such a person have passed…

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Change Is Only Hard For Those Who Resist It

12 Sunday Apr 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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I am having a hard time because I find myself resisting and unwilling to consider that which I do not believe was the intent of God, and I find that from where I sit in the pew there is little being said and that which is said is usually ignored. You can count the number of readers of this blog on one hand but it has become a way for me to express my faith, and the defense of it in a way that I hope does not offend. I shared with you the name of a book I am reading, “Finding Our Way: Love And Law In The United Methodist Church”. I have finished the book and I still feel the same way I did before I read it. To be fair to the book it is I believe one that all Methodists should read. It does not offer a solution to the same-gender issue currently sapping the energies, time and talent needed to answer the call but rather offers a number of paths we might follow to continue this conversation without further dividing the church. I am reading the book again because I believe the core question “what was God’s intent” will not be answered in endless debate and well intentioned compromise. I believe the change that is the goal of same-gender advocates is in direct conflict with God’s intent regarding marriage and sexual morality. While this book at first reading has not changed my mind, it has awakened in me a need to study and pray seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I am feeling led to explore another approach to this issue that I have yet to see come up.

Everything I have read or heard is about how should the Church and Church Law will deal with same-gender issues. There is another side, how do we in the pews deal with those people? Here is where being a Christian goes beyond Sunday and Wednesday, outside into a world of those people. Who are those people?

Mark 12 28 One of the legal experts heard their dispute and saw how well Jesus answered them. He came over and asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus replied, “The most important one is Israel, listen! Our God is the one Lord, 30 and you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your being, with all your mind, and with all your strength.31 The second is this, You will love your neighbor as yourself. No other commandment is greater than these.”

Love thy neighbor of course is followed closely by the question “who is my neighbor?” We know the story from Luke 10 about the man who was beaten and robbed and left to die, and the exchange between Jesus and the legal expert. Jesus asks the question….36 What do you think? Which one of these three was a neighbor to the man who encountered thieves?” and of course the answer…..37 Then the legal expert said, “The one who demonstrated mercy toward him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” Now ponder this….. “that whomsoever we have need to receive kindness from, and find ready to show us the kindness we need, we cannot but look upon as our neighbor; and therefore ought to look upon all those as such who need our kindness, and to show them kindness accordingly, though they be not of our own nation and religion.” Resource » Matthew Henry’s Commentary

The other side does not involve committees, panels, study groups or other means of searching for a path to understanding that will result in unity. The other side of this question lies with you and I, we in the pew. We are called to show kindness to all of God’s people. Guess what? To borrow a line from the old “Pogo” comic strip “those is us”. In the Methodist tradition all are welcome into God’s house and to the Lords table. Have we truly sought to offer kindness, mercy and love to those people? Or are we so wrapped up in “church law” that we have forgotten God’s Law. Next week I will look at God’s law. I encourage you to study, pray and seek the Holy Spirt in this matter. Get involved….I will be waiting here in the pew.

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Hope Lives Where Strength Resides

03 Friday Apr 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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On this Good Friday I like many Christians all over the world look forward to the day of resurrection and the assurance of life everlasting, the rekindling of our faith because he lives! The empty tomb says it all and hope abides in all who call him Lord. Stay strong in the faith and accept no compromise in the truth of his word. This is my Good Friday message to friends and all who read this. There is nothing remarkable about what I have written here. What is remarkable is that in an ever changing world, I could be arrested, put to death without trial, convicted for my faith. What is remarkable is I am free to say and write, “He is Lord of Lords, King of Kings, and all praise is to Him, my God, my Savior and our Hope. Our strength lives in our hope and hope lives where strength resides.
jkcarpenter

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It Is All In The Word

30 Monday Mar 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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Last blog I shared with you our struggle over same- gender relationships which have progressed to the point of possibly creating a split in the United Methodist Church. I wrote of a book “Finding Our Way: Love and Law in The United Methodist Church” which I am now reading. The following is taken from that book and was written by Rueben P Job.

Or after forty- two years of trying to find our way on our own, does it really matter how we got where we are? Because we all know we are at an unhealthy place and a place we do not want to be. Today we are deeply pained to find ourselves in a church we dearly love that is severely wounded, divided, politicized, and draining energy and resources in our struggle over same- gender relationships to the neglect of our witness for Jesus Christ.”

Amen! Brother Job, well said and to the point! I too grow weary of this continuing debate, topic, discussion; I am at a loss as to exactly what to call it. It is indeed sapping the resources and time of clergy and laity that are needed to do the work of the Lord, the work that we as Christians have been called to do. I think the book seeks to address a subject that is long overdue and is casting a large shadow within our denomination. Whether it is a change of mind, procedure, rule or statement of position, change never comes easy. It is my view and a number of other folks in the pew that this change comes with too great a cost. This is from the Book of Discipline page 54.

“But even as they were fully committed to the principles of religious toleration and theological diversity, they were equally confident that there is a marrow of Christian truth that can be identified and that must be conserved.”

One of the definitions for marrow is, the inmost, best, or essential part. You see I believe our church has been high jacked as a means of legitimizing a social issue that clearly the church, as witnessed by God’s word should not be an arbitrator of, as God spoke to this from creation on. This issue has been decided. We, Christians, will never see a Godly resolution of this issue within the church as long as the debate is influenced by secular world norms and under the banner of civil rights. I submit to you that the essential part of this issue is God’s word.. To that I add this word . What was God’s intent as to man and woman and to marriage? I would not for a moment pretend to know God’s mind but I do feel I am reasonably educated enough to discern his intent. In this particular moment I believe it was very clear.

Genesis 1
26 And God said Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

God said, not a committee, study group or highly educated theologians; male and female he created them and for what purpose? Verse 28 answers that. From Genesis on marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that to be God’s intent. Now the other issue from which this issue of same sex marriage came out of.

Leviticus 18 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

None of these words are from any other source than God. What was God’s intent? Could it have been I am the Lord your God, I am holy, so shall you be holy. This is what God expected from his people and does to this very day. I find that which you are asking the church to accept in the name of inclusiveness are things that God said to be an abomination in his sight have somehow become alright by today’s norms.Can you show me any other intent God may have envisioned? I believe this is about Holy Living, seeking to be in God’s presence. Next week I will share what our responsibilities are to God’s people. I will be waiting here in the pew.

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The Elephant In The Pew

22 Sunday Mar 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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I have struggled with this particular blog because the last thing I want to do is sow discord. The two previous blogs were gentle attempts to broach this subject. I believe that in the pew this is not a subject that is routinely discussed, like the old “elephant in the room,” we know it’s there but look the other way. Experience has taught me that the act of avoidance is akin to blissful ignorance. Wake up! This elephant is not going to go away. There is a debate that encompasses the whole of the United Methodist Church, is divisive at its very utterance and is quietly destroying the faith. It is particularly disturbing because the leadership of our denomination is itself spinning in the wind in hopes that enough dust will cover a subject that draws lines quicker than a room full of architects with pencils and drawing tables.

The subject of discussion is Homosexuality, Same Sex Marriage and what the church believes to be the correct path forward. Like the Israelites we too have been wandering in the wilderness, for at least forty years, and having our faith questioned. For us there seems to be no Mosses and the Promised Land is hidden from view behind trees of words. These twelve words have given birth to well over several million words over the last forty years.

Leviticus 18 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

I alluded to a path the church is traveling and it is troubling that so few of those of us from the pew are walking it with the leadership of our denomination. I purchased a book last week that has opened my eyes and contains enough red flags that one would think it was May Day in China. Here is the title, “Finding Our Way: Love And Law In The Methodist Church” This book has several authors, all respected clergy and ordained elders of the church. I recommend you start your journey down the path by reading this book. This book was used at a recent clergy meeting in Pigeon Forge TN as a guide in small discussion groups.

Next week’s blog will go into some detail about this subject and where this layman is at this point. This is my thought and it could be wrong. I believe that most pastors don’t like divided or unhappy folks in the pews. That makes for an unhappy church which the DS surely does not like and the conference likes it even less. Point is this issue is being discussed among the clergy and some Lay-Leadership but we, the folks in the pew aren’t at the table yet. Remember Leviticus 18:22….well folks this debate is not about a verse of twelve words. It goes to the very core of the faith. Come back next week, buy the book, ask questions, get informed. I’ll be waiting here in the pew.

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It Depends On The Definition of “is”

15 Sunday Mar 2015

Posted by John Kurt Carpenter in Uncategorized

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I remember when Webster said marriage was between a man and a woman but like all books there is a revised or newer version today. Here then is the current definition of marriage according to Webster, which points out that this is the “Full Definition”.

Full Definition of MARRIAGE
1
a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage
b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock
c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2
: an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3
: an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T.

Well the explanation, “like that of a traditional marriage ”, helps me understand to some degree the state of confusion in the Methodist church about this marriage issue that for the last 40 years has been the subject of many debates and written word in our church. To be fair the issue for most of those years was homosexuality and only recently has the debate included marriage, same-sex marriage. Now it is coming together for me. Marriage requires two people, a contract by law that is between persons of the opposite sex, or two people of the same sex who chose to be united in a manner like that of a traditional marriage. This relationship then becomes defined as wedlock, an institution whereby the individuals are joined in marriage.

I am trying hard to be rational about this and I believe Webster’s has given me a path to follow. This debate we Methodists are having has been wrongly labeled. This is about a traditional socially approved practice that meets the legal and social norm of our day.

Full Definition of TRADITION
1
a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable
2
: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3
: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4
: characteristic manner, method, or style

When you look at marriage as defined above it is really not that big a deal….socially speaking. From a faith perspective, living a holy life and obeying God’s law, it is a big deal. Two things and then I will wrap this up.

– Not only did Jesus choose not to marry, he encouraged his disciples to abandon household and domestic concerns in order to follow him (Matthew 19:29; Mark 10:28-30; Luke 9:57-62). He even refers to those “who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 19:10-13). Whatever that means, it’s certainly not an endorsement of marriage. Paul likewise encourages male believers: “Do not seek a wife” (1 Corinthians 7:27, my translation) — advice Paul took for himself. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html

-What Jesus Taught
“And He answered and said to them, ‘Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’“
—Matthew 19:4 (NKJV)
“But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’”
—Mark 10:6 (NKJV)
When Jesus was asked questions about marriage he went straight back to the defining passages in Genesis that say that marriage is between male and female and is meant to be life-long. He saw the Creation accounts in Genesis as authoritative in His day. And what is authoritative for Jesus is authoritative for Christians also. While Jesus did not specifically teach on homosexuality, His establishment of the Genesis passages as the fundamental passages on marriage (even more fundamental than the Law) leaves no doubt as to the outcome. http://www.openbible.info/topics/marriage

To those of us that consider God’s word and law to be a standard of holy living that we as Christians consider to be the calling we have been given it is asking much of us, too much, that we be expected to violate our God’s commandants to us in order to satisfy the ever changing socially acceptable norms. The Methodists in the pews, the ones I sit with welcome all into God’s house and to his table. We will not however condone or support a church or leadership that asks us to accept that which our God has found to be an abomination in his eye. If we must violate our faith to accept your demands, in what way is that of God?

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